Christina Sharpe (nee Shorthose) wrote (Sep 5th 2015) …
Via Ancestry.co.uk, I had found my Shorthose ancestors quite easily on their Census (originals), but I am wondering just how and where you have come across the parentage of Catherine Shorthose (nee Knighton) who married my direct ancestor John Shorthose, which you mention in this website (see below)?:-
Shorthose Catherine w 58 Cotmanhay (nee Knighton mar 1824/ of George and Mary (Siverns) mar 1781)
I have tried to find a marriage for George Knighton & Mary Siverns in 1781, but I can only find one for George Knighton and Mary Sissons – I am therefore wondering could Siverns have been written/transcribed by mistake and in reality it should be Sissons, or indeed vice versa?? I know that there were many Sissons in Ilkeston.
NAME: George Knighton
SPOUSE: Mary Sissons
MARRIAGE: 17 Jul 1781 – Ilkestone, Derbyshire, England
RESIDENCE: Ilkeston, Derbyshire, England
I would love to get to grips with this particular family line.
Dave replied (Sep 7th 2015) …
You ask about Catherine Shorthose …
‘I am wondering just how and where you have come across the parentage of Catherine Shorthose (nee Knighton) who married my direct ancestor John Shorthose, which you mention in this website‘
Catherine Shorthose was born Catherine Knighton and she appears on the 1841/51/61 censuses. In 1851 she is recorded as aged 58 and in 1861 as 68. If you look at her death registration in June 1861, just after the census was taken, she is recorded as aged 66 and at her burial at Christ Church Cotmanhay she is listed as aged 67. This of course would place her birth around 1793-1795 in Ilkeston.
This links to the baptism at St Mary’s Church, Ilkeston, of ‘Kitty Nighton’ daughter of George and Mary on Aug 4th 1793.
George and Mary had already had a daughter Catherine born in 1789 but she had died just over a year later. In all, I can find at least ten children born to the couple, the first one being Samuel, baptised in November 1781.
Looking for a marriage of George and Mary in the original register of St Mary’s you can find .. on Jul 17th 1781 .. the marriage of George Knighton, coalminer, to what looks like Mary Siverns, both of Ilkeston.
There are very few other ‘Siverns’ recorded in the Ilkeston .. though the name may be written as Sivern, or Severn or Severns or Seavern or Severne. … and there are many Severns in Ilkeston.
As you say there are also many ‘Sissons’ in Ilkeston … I see that the marriage on FamilySearch is recorded as ‘Mary Sissons’, and also on Findmypast (which uses FamilySearch).
I suppose that ‘Sissons’ can look like ‘Siverns’ and vice-versa, though at the moment I am inclined to the latter name.
Like several other Ilkeston families, the Knightons appear a close-knit clan… if you look on the census you will find several of the children of George and Mary living in very close proximity, all in Cotmanhay or that area.
Catherine Shorthose died on June 14th 1861 and the informant at her death was ‘Betty Clay’. Now assuming that Betty is living in Ilkeston and is on the 1861 census, there is one candidate living in Cotmanhay, (widow of John Clay), who is also a member of the Knighton clan. There is another possible candidate … Elizabeth Clay, living in Stanton Road, who I believe was born Elizabeth Boam, married Samuel Knighton (the brother of Catherine) in 1805, and when widowed, then married Thomas Clay, in 1837. (By 1861 she was a widow once more).
Has any of this helped? … or helped to confuse you even more?!
Christina replied (Sep 10th 2015) …
Many thanks indeed for the speedy clarification – but you have given me lots of avenues to pursue so all is not lost!!.
I think I must be related to half the population of Cotmanhay!! We do have Clays and Boams already on our tree, and it is getting very incestuous with the Knightons in there as well.
I too had worked out that my Catherine Knighton/Shorthose was probably Kitty, owing to another Catherine having died previously. I certainly did not know that she was one of 10 children, as I only had 4 others (Mary, Catherine, John & Joseph) , so it would be good to have those other names, one of which you tell me is Samuel. If you have the other names I would love to know who they are.
I was VERY interested to see that the informant at the death of Catherine was a Betty Clay (where did you find this snippet?). We do have Clays in our tree. I have indeed a John Clay with a question mark down for a wife called Elizabeth – so perhaps this is Betty?? – Can you confirm that this Betty is a Knighton please as that is how I understand your wording? However the other version of Elizabeth BOAM marrying Samuel Knighton and then later Thomas Clay is also a very possible candidate – I will delve into those too.
Strangely enough, John Shorthose’s mother (ie Catherine Knighton’s mum in law) – Elizabeth Shorthose (nee Nash) was widowed very young and it would seem she later also married a Thomas Clay of Heanor in 1808!
With regards to the marriage of George Knighton & Mary Siverns/Sissons: funnily enough today a very kind person (who I had contacted via Ancestry.co,uk) went to the Records office and looked up the marriage for George Knighton and Mary “Sissons” and confirmed to me that in their minds, it was definitely Sissons, but written so badly that it could easily be mis-interpreted as Siverns. So now I am still not sure which to believe as you seem to favour Siverns!!. I wonder if it would be possible to see an actual copy of the original record so that I could decide for myself?
So YES your message has certainly helped and given me more avenues to pursue. If you could kindly clarify some of my above queries that would be wonderful.
Dave replied (Sep 12th 2015) …
Only half the population of Cotmanhay!?! Let’s see if we can add to that !!
You ask about the children of George and Mary …
If you have the other names I would love to know who they are.
As first child I have Samuel, baptised at St Laurance Church in Heanor (Nov 1781). At one time he was a victualler and a beer seller and I believe he died in Nov 1836, aged 55.
Then Elizabeth, born and died in 1783.
Then two Marys … first one bap 1785-d 1786, second one bap 1787 – d 1790
Polly (another Mary?) bap 1791
George bap 1796
And on to the Clays?
You ask ‘Can you confirm that this Betty is a Knighton please as that is how I understand your wording?’
On the 1861 census there is a Betty Clay (2436-012-83) at Cotmanhay, aged 64, and with her is her grand-daughter Marina Clay, aged 10.
I believe that Betty was born Elizabeth Knighton in 1797, daughter of John and Hannah (nee Lacey). She married John Clay alias John Clay Flint in Oct 1824.
Marina Clay alias Marina Clay Flint or Marina Flint Clay is the illegitimate daughter of Mary Ann Clay or Clay Flint.
(In May 1854 Mary Ann married Edward Wright. And then in August 1868 Marina married Thomas Baker and on her marriage certificate she gave her father as Edward Wright).
John Clay died on Oct 24 1857, aged 60 … recorded as John Clay Flint.
His wife Elizabeth died on Feb 22 1877, aged 80 … recorded as Elizabeth Flint Clay!!
As for the Siverns vs Sissons problem, you write that another researcher has examined the original.
I transcribed this part of the register many years ago when I was doing a general search. This name was of no particular significance to me at that time, so I didn’t take an overdue note of it. If your ‘friend’ has now looked again at this entry and thinks it is Sissons then I would be inclined to accept his/her judgement, or at least lean to that conclusion.
As you know the original record is at the Derbyshire Records Office and I believe it is possible to get from there a photocopy of what you want. (I think it is part of D3082 but of course you would be more precise) Perhaps your ‘researcher’ might visit again and get a copy to send to you?!!
If I haven’t made any of these details clear enough, please follow them up with me, … or if you question any of this or need to ask more. Do remember that this is the result only of my research so far.
Christina wrote (Nov 17th 2015) …
I wonder if you could now perhaps point me in the right direction for any info on the possible parentage of my 5x Gt Grandmother – Mary Sissons b. approx 1760 (no idea where?? but hopefully still local to Ilkeston???) who married George Knighton in 1781 in Ilkeston.
Could she be related to the Sisson family (ie I am thinking of Thomas the Giant Sisson ??) but their surname is spelt without the final “s”. I cannot seem to get a grip on her parents/ her birth/baptism etc and wonder if you had come across these during your past research?
Dave replied (Nov 18th 2015) …
I reckon George and Mary had at least 10 children, the last one being baptised at St Mary’s in 1803. Assuming that they were both alive about that time I can see only one burial for a George Knighton before 1841 and that was on April 28th 1825 at St Mary’s, when that George was aged 70, giving a birth year about 1755.
Looking for a burial for Mary Knighton after 1803 I can find two candidates….
Mary Knighton of Cotmanhay buried at St Mary’s in August 1827, aged 65 (birth year about 1762)
Mary Knighton, a widow, aged 83 (birth year 1755) who was living with her son George when she died on Jan 15th 1838 at Cotmanhay.
(There were other Marys but I have eliminated them for a variety of reasons)
Allowing for the fact that burial ages can be somewhat inaccurate, the only Mary Sisson I can find baptised 1750-1770 in the daughter of Samuel and Mary (Garrott?) in 1767.
I can’t find either George or Mary on the 1841 census so am assuming they were both dead.
Mary could have remarried after the death of George? Or there is possibility that she was a widow when she married in 1781 (although at that time the vicar seems to have indicated when a bride was a widow)
I can find no evidence that they were both born in Ilkeston/Cotmanhay so we may have to look a little wider.
The Mary who died in 1838 had a son George who may still be alive on the 1841 census? … I can find no evidence yet that he died 1838-1841.
I shouldn’t worry too much about the spelling of Sisson or Sissons … they seem to be interchangeable and there are many more variations, as there are with Knighton !!
I offer a lot of assumptions but not a lot of concrete help I am afraid.